Tubularsock

RE:[http://joeplummer.com/tragedy-and-hope-made-easy.html] – i read it a little. It looks a little \ somekind of a mix Alex Jones conspiracy\tin foil + typical wester arrogance about Russia’s insights and history formed by mass-propaganda during tens of years in press\literature\think-tanks\media\etc what leaded to intoxication of brains on some moents even of those ones who always looked positively on Russia.

RE:[All you said here, could very well be true, but that still doesn’t mean that the same elite powers running the west are not running Russia and China!] – well, i don’t know how things goes on in China in matter of Elites b\c firstly China ispretty closed on this matter and secondly you should know a least some mandarin to start research such subject and i don’t know mandarin at all(only going to start learning to some basic lavel b\c of potential usability in future).

But i can say a lot about Russia instead. 😉

You, there is searious HISTORICAL difference betweeen The West and Russia exist – the fundamental one.
The world for The West (esp. US, but for Europe too) always was and still is the material base or source of income\profits and main source of wealth. I will not describe here now whole the mechanics and instruments how The WEst always used and is using now the world for its own wealth securing – i hope that many pll, who read this blog know this if not well then at least fair enough.
This why The West ALWAYS tries to conquer and control the world! Now USA\UK, before – UK and Europenian Countries.
B\c without the world which will supply them, which they will use and exploit The west can NOT seruce its own wealth and development. – this is the main reason of unstoping expansions, conquers and wars(incl. proxy ones) of western civilization no matter what pretext\excuse\pretence was used(religous-damn Rome Catholics, ideologic – democracy, freedom, capitalism, enemy- communists, terrorists, islamists, humanitarian – color revolutions, “medical help” in Africa or even charity and so on)
Actually the forces of the western civilization didn’t change during centrueis – they just move their head quater from time to time (FRance, Spain, Portugal, UK, USA, Belgium etc).
This is also the real reason of globalization so much pushed and promoted by The West – new form of conquering – economic an financial one.
Whole western civilization and economy is builded on exploitation and robbering of the other world. Nothing changed today! Moreover even mentality of ppl didn’t change – you are very naive if you think that Europenians or Americans are all nice peacful ppl – just take away their wealth and you will see what will happen. 😉 And the world slowly if cutting “free stuff” and becoming independent from the West – as reasult you can already see how shit is slowly fly to the fan as in US as in Europe….and already now – in the very begining slow reappearance of nazi already can be obserable in Europe for example… in the very begining(shit is still far away from the fan).

Russia’s case on the contrary have totaly different nature as now as historicaly. And that thing is also fundamental one.

If for The West The world – is vital source of wealth and essential substance for existence, then for Russia The world – is ALWAYS source of troubles, wars, enemies, looters, disturbance and all possible problems. And this phenomena remain the same for already 400 years!

This is the reson why Soviets tried to isolate Russia by building the alternative SEPARATED socialistic world – not b\c they consder US as enemy and not b\c of Colda War, which was NOT stated by them, but by bastard..sorry – sir Churchil. But such approach unfortunately failed in strategic long term perspective and The West at the end found ways how robe and exploit Russia again. This is why Putin said many times – no any isolation now.

Russia in a civilization term is not Only Russian Federation, but whole former USSR or Russian Empire and in such form it is THE MOST self self-sufficient land and state in world in ALL possible senses and potentially the welthiest in the world in long perspective b\c of this and some few other features.
So Russian civilization DON”T need the world – it can exist without it abs. FINE! Infact Russia is reluctant to interact\cooperate with the world b\c the world is ALWAYS the source of Russia’s troubles. So prevent those troubles in early stage and to deter the enemy forces Russia decided that now no more isolationism will be used(b\c its not working properly) – instead Russia and China are going to “infect” or “contaminate” and corrupt The West from inside now and in such way establish some level of control and inteligence, not alowing The West to bring new troubles to Russia or China in observable future again.
Russia don’t need and never needed anything from The West or even from the world – it needs only to be leaved in peace and calm for a steady development and anthing needed for that development it has and alwasy had. Exist few other additionals moments – such as that Russian civilization area together is one of the least populated huge regions of the world(1\6-1\5 approx) and the same time the richest one in matter of all possible sources per captia what is very important stragically and in long perspective and some others less obvious aspects

This is why elite powers of The West and elite powers of The Russia naturally can NOT be the same – they are different in core, different in a goals and targets and that is why different in ideology, worldview, methods and approaches. And all those differences are fundamental and historical ones – they are the same already for 400 years.

Desribing goals in short: Russia as China don’t want the global dominance and to become the masters of world as The West elites. For what would Russia need that? What the world can give Russia it already don’t have?
The longterm goal of Russia – to become energy superpower in all ways(oil, natural gas, cutting edge nuclear power and nuclear fusion in future) and cutting edge technological superpower and high-end tech provider togehter with bigest organic food provider…. , where NOT big, but wealthy and well educated population will be working mainly in cutting edge tech. industries and science (like fudamental sceince, all ways of engineering and high-end chemistry, bicotech, space exploraration and solar system mining and so on).

The longterm goal of China as i can understand(i’m not sure) – is to become the quality consumer producs manufacture superpower with whom no one else will be able compete nor in qulity nor in amounts nor in price per quality. Such pproach will secure Chinese ppl wealth as well as good society and civil and consumer tech development.

So in such way Russia and China are complementing each other and this is the core of their cooperation.

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Em… you are wrong and right the same time. 🙂 Hard to explain (esp. in brief), but i will try.

1)Most part of those oligarchs you are talking appeared in 90s in Russia – just after collapse of USSR and western neo-colonisation of Russia. Most part of them(the most agressive and betrayal ones to national interests) are already removed , injailed or kicked out of the country.
2)Some little part remained of those oligarch from 90s … but they are in very different position to their western colleagues and here is why:
—in Russia as opposite to The West the top power is state or government power, but not business and corporate establishment. Concetration and centralization of the power in state\governmental hand iv very high- almost absolute.That is why those little remained part of oligarchs were forced to work for the State interests and National Interests – otherwise they would have the same destiny as one from point #1 above 🙂
—these ramined oligarch who agreed to serve the state and national interests are generally in very vulnerable position in the face of The State \ government b\c almost laways all their capitals and assets vere gained illegally during 90s and technically origins from public ownership b\c\ were created by ppl during USSR times. That is why such assets and derivated from them capitals can be confiscated \expropriated for benefit of the country and into State ownership any moment on legal base if thoser oligarch will start to act against inational and country interests. That is deal why they were allowed to exist and technically you can consider them as ones who were administered the oath fro serving Russia’s State interests.
3)From 90s there are some small forces in russian goverment remained, who are working against Russia and want to establish the same order here as in the west and include Russia into global neo-colonial neo-liberal plutocracy. It is hard to find the right term for them in english…well yuo can call them like neo-liberals, agents of foreign influence or 5th column.
I will not desribe here all the details and thin moments of this phenoma b\c it will require few tens of text pages min, but there is a war\ fight under carpet is going on in Russia between this neo-liberal 5th column and Putins team together with other patriotic forces. And Patriotic forces are winning – that is why BrainWashington, LondonStan and BrusSELLs together with Soros and other well known bastards are so upset and so angry about Russia ))).
4)In Russia almost all crucial and strategic industries are State owned, MIC is also completely in State ownership, all infrastructure and infrastructure operating companies \ operators are also in the government property.
5)The concentration of state power and control continue to grow – that is why GMOs were completely banned, foreigh companies and individual can’t buy a land in Russia, control of food industry and standarts is growing, the same grow of control is now obserable for investment activity and even for various exchanges inc. commodities and stock ones(esp. notable for MOEX and MICEX). A lot of things are done and are being done now in right way – even civil car manufactures if they want to sell cars in Russia should build the factories\plants in Russia with localisation of manufacturing at least 80-90%. There Chevrolet, Mercedes, Opel, Toyota, Suzuki, Volvo, Nissan, Renault and many others are actually build in Russia.
There is serious activity for de-offshorisation of Russian business going on now – business is forced to return the capitals into Russia tax jurisdiction together with amnesty on previous tax evasions in offshores. There is polt of public property – you can’t make a natural lake or part of the beach a private property even if you will build the hotel there etc. Actaully very many right things and moves to positive direction can be told and named.

Or for example russian ppl are offered now additoinal FREE land – here is some english clicknews on the subject:

But there is a missinformation in the video: free land is offered only to Russian citizens(partly for Ukranians, Belarussians and Kazakhs) and ppl who can prove their russian blood\origin and speak fluent russian language in other countries. Also there not only 2,5 acres offered – but up to 8 acres or up to 2,5acres pear each family member.
Also the free land for russians is offered not in some ice-desert or trash-place, but in amazing, beautiful, rich and fertile regions of the russian far-east:

So overall you are not right… in Russia exist some not big amount of remained oligarhs, but they are on the governmental chain and don’t have real power and moreover they lose their influence even more these days.

Totally opposite situation is Ukraine – there is exactly the siatuation as you described, but not in Russia.
However things in Russia are not completely fine, they much mcuh better than in the west, but not perfect – and russian ppl know and see that. A lot of work should be done additionally and right forces are now in the power and control and that is why they have full ppl support.

To my observations and analytics there is no more than 10-15 years are need to make things if not perfect then almost perfect. And thx God all is going that way… not fast, but steady! 😉

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RE: [That is what Zbigniew Brzezinski geostrategist chess game is all about. And it is the oligarchs that move the pieces! It is all covered over in words like “freedom, self determination, equality” but both Eastern and Western oligarchs are working only on one thing ……. control.”]
You are right about that polish asshole Zbigniew and actually what he described was an official foreign policy of GB and Gb-extension(USA) for the last 400 years.

But can you name At LEAST ONE episode in history when Russia or moreover russian oligarchs or end “shadow elite” tried to control the world… or even encicrcle the the USA or UK or damn France physically \ millitary?

RE:[And to perform that task they help support the fear of the people so as to control them.]
And about Soviet times? What kind of oligarchs were in Soviet Union? Can you name me at least few ones?
In USSR there was no any histeria about The West as oppsoite to situation in UK and esp. in US! Soviet ppl NEVER was afraid of The West! Yes, they know that the west was their enemy and wanted to hurt\damage their country, but they was NOT afraid!…and afterall soviet ppl and soviet propaganda actually were completely right on this point.

Moreover all ppl like to talk about Cold War, but who started it..and moreover why?
So you see, here is misconceptions: there is never was any oligarchs in USSR, but conftrontaion shit in the world was the same, soviet ppl were extreemely moral and ethic (much better than ppl today and much better than westerners), educated without any fear of The West, but shit was the same, so-called “evil” soviet communists did much more good things to world than the west nd produced much more moral, etichal and just society and ppl than the west, BUT still shit around USSR was the same.
WHY? Can Tubularsock explain that phenomena? 😉

RE: [So from your information there are somewhat controlled oligarchs within Russia who “. . . were allowed to exist and technically you can consider them as ones who were administered the oath fro serving Russia’s State interests”]. Yup, they appeared naturaly during property haos in 90s, some of them agreed to serve for the State interests and that is why they were allowed to stay b\c otherwise in would be much more expensive to relocate their property and assets and industries back to government ownership and create the same time effective mangement and development.
You should understand Russia at those moment HAD TONS of other troubles – you can not even imagine how many! So if some oligarchs were able to develop industries and resolve some tiny part of those huge pack of the russian troublea generally serving Russian intertests -that was in acceptable deal at those hard times.
I can say you that if UK or Western Europe will ever face such a situation as faced Russia – there will be a civil war..if US will ever face that -there will a be literally the Tarantino style blood bath all over the country!

RE:[Along with them there are “5th column” oligarchs within the Russian Government who are fighting “Putins team” for control.]
NO!
Ther is no any serious “5th column oligarchs” – all of them are removed from asstes or capitals, alredy injailed, kicked out of the country! The last one was Hodorkovskiy.

Separately exist so-called “5th column” inside the government(esp. ner its economic and financial part) and near so-called “civil society” and economic\fiancial think-tanks, but they are not oligarchs per se – they are just traitors on sallary, grants and kickbacks from StateDep, Soros, USAIDm Freedom Hhouse and many-many other various foundations, funds, trusts, corps and so on.

I’m repeating you oligarchs in Russin have no serious control on the Govermental Power. They had such control in 90s, but now situation is totally opposite – The State in Russia is powerfull again. Now in Ukraine situation is like in Russia in 90s.

RE:[Now Tubularsock believes you that the “5th column” oligarchs are out to take as much control as possible but didn’t Putin himself soon after taking over remove the Yeltsin-era elite and put in a new elite in its place—mostly from St. Petersburg, equally corrupt, but loyal exclusively to him?]

Yes and No. Most part of the property ofthose oligarchs was returned to the state ownership, were created state corporatios, privatisation of strategic assets and industries were forbiden, liquidation and sell-out of many crucial and strategic enterprises were stopped and many were saved almost on the edge and many many more.
Sure to do all that in Western completely controlable NEO-COLONY which was Russia in 90s Putin was in need to create own team and circles of trustable ppl. Otherwise he woudn’t achieve success in returning russian sovereignty.
Morever the is a lot of things still should be done, he is not finished his work yet!
And this may surprise you or you even may find it funny, but even now Russia is NOT completely sovereign and NOT fully independent in its activity – she is almost there, but still not there – only moving to direction of complete and absolute sovereignty…. and make the western plutocrats cry b\c of this.

RE:[And what are these estimates that Putin’s net worth is $200 billion?]

Who toald that? There was talks at first about 40ln, then 70 and 200. Any serious credibale evidences exist except of grants backed words of some media-twats? Or maybe at least some tiny indirect but credible tips? – No!, no single serious evidence of this exist today.

Moreover, every sane persone should ask himslef for what Putin need those imaginary tons of money if he already may have everything he wants or needs b\c of absolute power – literally abs everything! For what would he need those money? Insted of toilet paper? – well, he is not in glamour or gansta thing. LOL )))

RE:[Tubularsock doesn’t know any of this to be true but it does present the question that if Putins team” are just another brand of oligarchs fighting for control then we are back to the original point: who can you trust?]

Putins team are not oligarchs – they are top brass, inteligence and Statesmen folks.
Are Shoygu, Lavrov, Rogozin, Sergei Ivanov, Miller, Sechin and many many others – oligarchs? – No! But all that team have some … lets say friendly or … even better to say chain\lap controlable oligarchs, who are used by State team more like instruments against western ones and against transnational corp. megacapitals.

RE:[Now the biggest issue in discussing this entire mess is the propaganda that is in place on all sides of this issue. To formulate a true picture may be impossible only because the lies and false statements are all over the place.]

True. However propaganda is a very thin term. Here is interesting example: lets consider the soviet one – was it fasle? Does soviet propaganda lied to its ppl? – actaully no! moreover many ppl now ahve understood that soviet propaganda was if not compeltely true , then near 90% or almost completely true. The same time lets have a look to the western and particulary US propaganda: was the Soveit Union evil? – never..in fact it was far more moral and better in many ways than the west. Was the Soviet ppl aka “red evil communist” really evil ones – NO! no way near..infact the soviet ppl were probably the most moral, ethical and educated ppl and society in the whole human history – i lived there and i know what i’m talking about. Actually it is exactly those beatiful ppl what i miss most of all from USSR. Next, did USSR ever plan to attack or even conquer USA or the West – NO!, NEVER! Did The USSR started the Cold War and Arms Race – No! It always responed in matter of defending himself.

So , you see, in the modern world you can’t survive without own propaganda. Actually all this can be called the information war. And from this point and all stated above one can figure out that propaganda is not always false and not always lies..sometimes it tries to prevent BrainWashing and intoBrain shitting to poplation by the forces who are lets say “not very friendly”. And only each person himself should use his own brain to figure out what is truth and what is fasle, lies, manipulations and so on…good historical or fundamental(math, physics, chemistry, engineering etc) background usually helps that process a lot. 😉

RE:[Tubularsock likes RT’s views when they evaluate American news because they express more truth than the American press but RT is not as forthcoming when they discuss Russian news. And the American press is totality biased against Russia. So true information is difficult to find. So that is where you come in Abracadabra. ]

Ha! .. again yes and no. And again exist one fundamental difference between RT and western media: there is NO hypocricy in RT as opposite to western media channels. And the presence of only hypocricy – already delivers some not good and not very trustable conclusion regarding western media chanels by default.

RT – honestly, openly and clearly saying that it is a governmental chanel and it represent russian overlook on various events and worldview. RT is not screaming that they are independent media on “free” capitalistic media market without any edition politics or light censorship as opposite tomost western channels. So in RT there is no Lie from the very begining. – it is the first point.
Second point is that RT was officially created as International chanel whcih represents the official russian point and worldwiev… the key word – INTERNATIONAL! – i.e. RT specialisation by default is not Russia but other coutries. English RT is broadcasting mainly about US and UK, RT Deutach – about Germany, Austria, Belgium, Swiss and so on, RT Espanol – about all spanish and portugese talking countries, RT Arabic – about middle est and North Africa.

If you want more information and knews about Russia – you should watch internal russian channels…and you preferably should learn russian for that. Look ,for example, i’m not looking for deep information about US or UK in russian language right? – i search such information in english language in eglish sources and medias. So why it should be different for Russia? If person want more insight and info about Russia – he should look for it in Russian language.

Btw, this is the same reason why i told before in matter of elites nature and elite insights in Russia and China that i can talk only about russian case – b\c i DON”T KNOW MANDARIN!
To get deep, volumetric, branchy info about any country one should know the languae of that country .- otherwise you can count only on some pretty superficial picture\data array.

RE:[Tubularsock may not agree with all of what you say but there is much that we are in agreement about.]

That is ok. Afterall this is a way it should be – different background, different environment, different life experience – we can’t be all totaly the same. Discusssion is always the best way to find the truth.:)

RE:[You may be a little too optimistic about the your “almost perfect” prediction, however.]

You remind me now my ex-girflied 7 years ago, when i told her that i don’t want to live in EU or even physically in Europe b\c of 1…2…3.. 4… 5… and b\c in future there will be 6…7..8… and so on.
However at that moment she told me that i’m too pessimistic. 😀

If seriously, try to figure out what kind of crapthole in many senses was China 20 years ago. And then try to figure out what is China today. The level of progress and moreover THE SPEED of progress is mindblowing and showing that such speed and level of development is POSSIBLE if the State is really sovereign, governmented properly and plutocracy is under control. 😉

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